Episode 24: Developer to Architect with Bhavana Singh
Today, Bhavana Singh, Solution Architect and the founder of Three Moons Consulting, joins me to discuss her technical career. Her journey began with one of the coolest titles ever, Payload Commander for NASA. Bhavana has nine Salesforce certifications and was the first recipient of the coveted developer Golden Hoodie award. During our time together, she described how she became a developer and why she made the jump to Solution Architect.
- Bhavana recollected on her time at NASA, working in a satellite control center
- What it has been like for her to move from one programming language to another or from one framework to another
- How she went from Java to being introduced to Salesforce
- Seeing things as a developer and how as an architect she can step out of the project and see the bigger picture
- Some of the common pitfalls unique to Salesforce itself
- How she transitioned to working for herself and what she means when she says you need to invest in yourself
- Bhavana’s experience as the first developer Golden Hoodie recipient
- How she got involved in RAD (Radical Apex Developers) women and some of the work she does as a coach for the group
Bhavana: So I came here from India when I was very young. And actually at that time, I thought I was going to be a doctor. And then I come here and I saw computers for the first time. And I started trying coding in basic. And I got really interested in it. And then I started college and signed up to be a computer science major.
Josh: That is Bhavana Singh, a solution architect and the founder of Three Moons Consulting. I’m Josh Birk, a developer evangelist with Salesforce. And here on the Salesforce Developer Podcast, you will hear stories and insights from developers or developers. Today, we sit down with Bhavana and talk about her career, and how she’s gone from being a developer to an architect that we start this journey with a job with one of the coolest titles ever being a payload commander for NASA.
Bhavana: Yeah, so this was very interesting. So we were in a control center so the satellite had already been lost. And it was an ozone mapping satellite. And basically what we did was we monitored the health and safety of the satellite. So every time the sensor would pass over a control center, like say, Canberra, Australia, and there’s Wallops in Virginia, any of those places, then we would get a link to the satellite, and it would dump data. And then we have to make sure all the voltages and currents and everything is you know what we expect it to be. I have a very good story around the time. One time what happened was I was downloading this data and then one current said, like, it was like one ampere, and we’re just like, Oh, it’s like, oh, my God, the satellites going to fry. Like, what’s going on? So I download all the data is like ones and zeros, and there was no tool. Now I’m thinking what they were not tools to, for me to like put that somewhere to actually see what it says. So I printed it in a dot matrix printer. And I would like underline eight bits at a time to figure out what the hexadecimal is. And then I would come up with these codes. And then there was a book a handbook, and I would go into there and I would figure out what that number was. Somewhere in some software, somebody forgot to divide by something, because the actual current was 10 milliamps, which was fine. But I spent like four or five hours, I was working night shift, like from 7pm to 7am, like a majority of the time just figuring out what those numbers were by hand. So those were the fun days. Yes.
Josh: And I have to appreciate the reference to a dot matrix printer. We might have to put a link to that in the show notes so that some of our viewers understand what we’re talking about.
Bhavana: Yeah, some don’t even know what they are yet or have ever seen one.
Josh: And I completely respect the shout out to Pascal my first real programming experience was in PERL. Okay, that dates me slightly. And every now and then I like to ask you to pull the room how many PERL developers we still in the room were dwindling? We’re slowly dwindling. Okay, so but then you went from NASA to Because of NASA, you weren’t working in Java, right?
Bhavana: Yeah. Then I moved to a different NASA project. And everything over there was c++. When I had my second kid, I took some break. And then I was home for two years. And I was really worried that nobody’s going to ever hire me again, because I’m going to lose all my skills. And this was 2000. And then I started looking for a job and was hired as a Java developer within a week. And they were like, Oh, I spent the past two years like void, you know, for nothing. 2000 is when I started actually, still working on a NASA project. Yeah, in Java.
Josh: Got it. And as a developer who, okay, so you’re going from Pascal to C++ to Java. I know I’ve had a lot of experiences where it’s just sort of like, shall we say on the site training to a new programming language? Because that’s just what the project works with. works with what a What does it been like for you kind of moving from one language to another or from one framework to another?
Bhavana: Yes, a lot of times, it’s like some languages have some things That’s like language specific, but most of the time, you were like, okay, I want to do this. I know how to do this in C++. I guess by the time I had internet luckily. So, yeah, I mean, similarly, like, you know, when I moved to Apex, I was like, Okay, I know how to do this other ways, like, how can it be done to Google? How do I, I don’t know, even thought a list or something like that, then you say, Just then you just need to understand the syntax.
Josh: Yeah. I’m pretty certain without the existence of online forums. I wouldn’t be a developer today.
Bhavana: Yeah. Yeah. That would be very difficult. Yeah, I can’t imagine.
Josh: Yeah. The only language I ever learned in an actual classroom was turtle graphics logo. Everything else was post-college. And in fact, I had an interview at my alma mater, where they asked me if I took the web development class with a certain professor. And I’m like, No, I was the guy staying up late with that Professor arguing about HTML versus PDF.
Okay, so You mentioned apex. So how did you go from Java to being introduced to Salesforce?
Bhavana: So NASA had a lot of budget cuts around that time, too. So when I lost that job, the second job that I found it was in a hedge fund. And I was like, Okay, I won’t even like this, I will just do this for a year and look for something else. And I ended up being there for 13 years. But it got really interesting because I was instead of command and control center, they had a trading floor, and I was writing, you know, high frequency algorithms in Java for trading markets. Yeah, so you get the you know, asking bid data, and then you make a decision on each tick. And, you know, you break up your position into small portions and you by yourself, it was like, it got really so I didn’t think that it would be as interesting as you know, working in NASA, but it was and I ended up being there a long time. So when I was there, I went through various roles. You know, it’s like a typical story. You are a developer, a senior developer. And then you become like a project manager, software development manager. And then you email developers and then you you all you’re doing is meetings and one on ones and not writing any code. And then I was did that for a while. And then around that time, they said they had an on prem CRM system. And they use for their fund operations. But then they got, they had really tough time reaching out their people in the field. So somebody thought of getting Salesforce as a just a tool for sales and marketing department but did not trust it enough to put their fund operations data because it was in the cloud, and they didn’t trust the cloud. So now I was working on two CRM systems and then trying to get data from one aggregating it so you cannot tell and then putting it into the other system, and that was my first exposure to Salesforce in 2012. And the funny thing is, like, just prior to that I had spent six months trying to upgrade the other CRM system going like it really took six months because There’s so many issues, that CRM systems that don’t ever directly use SQL to access a database, but we didn’t listen to them we did. And then they change the whole database. And all of our reports were not working. It was a nightmare. Then when I saw Salesforce, and then when I saw that the upgrades just happen, like buy some magic, like three times a year, and you don’t even feel I think I would like this is too good to be real this. But I could not believe that that could happen, you know that any software could do that for you. And that’s where I sort of fell in love with cloud computing, where not only they give you a grace like that, but you could just work on it from anywhere. And anything you ever need. Is there right there. Right? server?
Josh: Yeah. This thing that haunted you for the last six months? Gone.
Bhavana: yes. Yeah. Just like yeah, I would like grab anybody who would want to listen to say, Do you believe like this happens on a Saturday or Sunday like at 2am for five minutes, and then you come in the morning and it’s done. Yeah, I couldn’t believe it.
Josh: So, so we touched on a little bit, but how did you find transitioning from Java and then going into Apex?
Bhavana: So yeah, it was actually mostly good because like the, you know, like the syntax is very similar. But the thing that I struggled the most of it, we’re now dealing with the limits, right? Because I was used to, okay, this is a little slow, let’s throw some more cores at it and more memory and memory was no longer memory used to be an issue maybe in the early 90s, where if you forgot to allocate and deallocate, then you will run out of memory, I forget the exception, but there was like you would run out of memory exception, something like that out of memory. But now you don’t run out of memory, you just can’t do things because you can have so many records at a time you can, you know, have all that you cannot do select star in a cycle. Not that you should do it anywhere. You shouldn’t have done it even in the old days. But you might have done it once in a while and but you can no longer do that. You To only get the fields you need, not more, not less, because then you don’t want to you know, so all those things like just took it makes you a maybe a more disciplined developer. But that took a while for me to adjust you. And I was like, What do you mean? I can just declare a variable? And then it’s not doesn’t live forever? Like, what do you? What is this?
So that was like, the biggest adjustment for me.
Josh: I feel like that last one is the one we don’t talk about a lot. And it’s one of the big ones because having come from, you know, a client server background, but also, you know, kind of being in control of my destiny. It’s like, like, the first thing I do is set up like the global variables I need. Yes. Interesting. It’s an interesting shift in context.
Bhavana: Yeah, like I remember we used to have this database connection class, and then we would have like a singleton class. And we were, so when we started this application, and then if we don’t reboot the server for like, two weeks, that thing is living for two.
We had that connection class and now it doesn’t.
Josh: Right, right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so that kind of sounds like you keep running into scenarios. You’re commanding satellites doing software for training like very mission critical kind of things. And now you’re in in the world Salesforce, but like how did this start kind of pushing you into the role of like a technical architect outside of just the developer role itself?
Bhavana: Yeah, it’s like a, it’s a very non glamorous story why I got interested into a technical architect. I think it was last but the one before where maybe it was excellent for this. I don’t know who it was like, I was at a session and they were like, they’re only less than 5% women doing you know, CTA and it’s like, really difficult. And I was like, Okay, that’s enough for me to say I’m going to do it because it’s really difficult and they’re not going to change that. And then and then the funniest thing is I’m I found myself not to be alone because I found ladies we architect and my study buddy, Alison Parker. Chicago and then we and then I now feel like there’s this whole army of women like just one day there’s gonna be this big spike because we all like almost there but not because we all started probably around that session where we’re like what?
Josh: And your like, we got this…
Bhavana: Yeah, we have to do this even if I don’t want to I even tell my husband you know once I become a CTA for you retire, but I’ll be too tired. And it’s like really interesting you know, it’s like a to defend like frame of mind. So as a developer, sometimes I go so down deep into the weeds I then don’t I can’t even pull out and see what the big picture was. When I love like being an architect, you know, like, What are you trying to achieve? And it is problem solving on a very different level. So that really intrigues me and right now I work for myself and I have a couple of small clients and then sometimes they will say, can you create a field or a flag and on here and I was like, What are you trying to achieve, you know, Like, Don, you shouldn’t tell me to add a field, you should tell me what you’re trying to do. Let me figure out if you need a field, or maybe there’s something else. So yeah, I like that aspect of it. Like, you know, the whole problem solving, looking at big picture.
Josh: It’s it kind of sounds like life was sort of setting you up for that direction to begin with, because I can, I would imagine you were asking yourself, as I agree, as a developer, I love to get in the weeds. Sometimes I spent a whole afternoon there. But before you get there, you were probably starting to ask yourself some of those questions before, you know, writing software for futures trading.
Bhavana: Yeah, because I’ve been in projects where like, they don’t have like a technical architect on the team. So you are everything you are the you are cleaning the data you’re writing, you’re the database, you’re the DBA. You’re the developer, you’re also the architect, so you have to do the complete solution. You have all the roles. Yeah.
Josh: Yeah. I feel like there’s an interesting transition for some developer persona. In the sense that I, I kind of walked in the same thing as sort of being a, like a protocol architect, but mostly because I didn’t want to get trapped writing stuff. I didn’t need to be in a room with a client being like, yeah, that’s an interesting idea. But maybe we don’t.
Bhavana: Yeah, yeah. Or like all the questions like, even they asked for something. Why do you need this? Like, do you really need this? You know, right. Yeah.
Josh: Right. Yeah, I remember talking to a developer at a random, I think, was a World Tour event or something like that. And he came up to me, and he’s like, hey, I’ve got this client. And they’re asking me how to get this data grid to show 500,000 records at the same time. And my first question was, why,
Why do you want to show that?
Yeah, you got you gotta challenge this client a little bit more.
Bhavana: Yeah, because I had the seminar because I was working on a lightning data table for somebody and they want to see everything at the same time and it paginates and other like, are you like visually and physically able to process that many records at a time like what are you Do checkers like to look at them at the same time? And if you need to look at it as maybe you need a chart, there’s nobody who can look at a table that’s like 500,000 long and really do something.
Josh: And actually perform on that. Right? Yeah. And to poke into that a little bit, you’ve had a lot of implementations with different clients. Are there common pitfalls like that, that you see that are kind of maybe unique to Salesforce itself?
Bhavana: So sometimes people get too set on, like, their requirements, so they picture something this way, and then can Salesforce do that? And I would like there’s always like more than one way of doing it. So okay, if you find out it cannot be done, then like, how about this solution? How about that solution? Because there’s always work around so I haven’t found anything limiting yet because they always, you know, like workarounds or like if you’re hitting limits, you have this feature called asynchronous calls. So I can just like throw money in right because I had like hitting the API limits or like, Okay, looks like we just gotta build more things more efficiently. Yeah.
Josh: Right. Yes.
So you work for yourself. And during that transition you’ve written, you’ve talked about the need to invest in yourself. What do you have? What do you mean by that?
Bhavana: So when I first started working for myself, for the first three or four months, I didn’t even look for any work. I had only the admin certification then. And I was like, I need to have more certification, not because I need a certification to show on my profile. But I need to understand if I’m going to call myself a consultant, and I need to understand at least what the Sales Cloud is. So I’ve worked on the Sales Cloud consultant certification. And that was a really hard one for me. Because I had an I realized what a narrow sliver of cloud Sales Cloud I had been using. So right and then I got it. I forget which one I got next, maybe platform app builder or developer one, but so investing in myself, I was laid off in March. And then there was a trailhead x coming in, I was like, I need to go there. So I only want east coast to go to West Coast, the flights, the hotel, everything is expensive. And then the Dreamforce. And then I started going to a lot of community events. So all of these things, even though if you go to an event and you cannot like at the end of the day, okay, this is my ROI on this event, it somehow happens in a roundabout way somehow. So I really tell people, so before that I used to always rely like on my employer, I was like, Oh, I can go to Dreamforce because they won’t send me. But then when I became a consultant, I realized you need to invest in yourself. So if they won’t send you they give you a week off. If they give you a week off, do you think it’s worth for you to invest that much money in yourself to learn more? If the answer is yes, just go do it. So I’ve been investing in ourselves. We like by going to conferences, taking courses and also investing last year I joined 100 days of trailhead, and I would wake up every morning, go downstairs, make a cup of coffee and sit down for an hour and do a trail or learn something and I continued that even like way past it because it became a habit like you just come down and then the fourth thing you want to do, like I want to do something pleasant and let me just do a trailhead.
Josh: Yes, well let’s let’s talk a little bit about that ROI. First of all, how many certificates Do you have right now?
Bhavana: So I have nine now. I’m like working on identity, which is really difficult for me right now. So I’m working on that to finish the pyramid. So I do that. Yeah. So I have nine.
Josh: I should say congratulations, because you are the first ever developer golden hoodie recipient.
Bhavana: Oh, yes. Thank you. Yeah, that was an amazing experience. Yes. Yes.
Josh: What was what was that like getting up on stage and meeting Parker?
Bhavana: Very, very scared.
I was so scared but then right before getting on the stage, I got to spend some time with Parker and then he put me he’s such a nice person. He just put me at ease and then we talked about and then I was like, when I got on The state I’ll just pretend I’m continuing talking to him and all these people around are not there because it was really scary. Yeah, but it was like actually such a good experience. Because after there’s so many people came to me. And if you like, oh, if you can do it, and also to see a developer, like a woman developer up there, they were really inspired. So yes, for that, I’m really happy.
Josh: Parker does have a calming influence on people. It’s Yes, it’s a real thing. It’s a real thing. So okay, so this is an interesting trajectory, that because you went to a session, you saw statistics saying, you know, women were not represented in this particular demographic. You and several others have now said no, like we don’t, we don’t accept that we’re moving forward with that. But that you yourself, get to get on stage and somebody sees you there now as that representation, so putting yourself out there in that community. I guess going back to ROI, your your investment in yourself is also also has been really good for our community.
Bhavana: Yes, I mean, I run the remaining tech Group here in Maryland, in Columbia, Maryland. And this is why I tell and I think I might we have 200 members, but very few come to the meeting, actual meeting. But most of them who come to the meeting are not developers. So they don’t feel like when we talk about CTA, or even just being like, not even go all the way up to CTA mountain, just do the solution, electrode application architect. They were like, No, no, no, we’re just an admin is not for us. And then just to let them know, no, they’re probably more admins. Now we’re, you know, trying to become a CTA, and who are really good architects, that then developers, I mean, you need both angles. I feel like I’m not a strong enough admin. So I need to become a stronger admin in order to become a better architect. So yes, I do, like always encourage people like no, I know it’s very hard to think about that. But just think about like, maybe you just get the data architecture, you know, or maybe that certification and see if it intrigues you some more. And maybe you just become a solution architect or you know, system architect or application It doesn’t have to be, you know, CTA. And once you get there, see what the next step is?
Josh: Nice. So you founded the Women in Tech in Columbia?.
Bhavana: Yeah. Cuz I was, I had gone to sales like before dreamforce we always have that and the night before event for women in tech. And I, I’m always so inspired by that event and then I came back one year and I was like, Where is the local vet group? And there was one it was like on on the trail where the community but they didn’t meet and then I would ask that, like, Can we please meet and they were like, no response. So I was really frustrated. And then somebody said, like, why don’t you start your own? And I was like, Oh, I didn’t even think of that. So I started my own and my first meeting was two people. We just went into a restaurant and just talked about stuff and then slowly now we have like, we try to find speakers we have good Yeah, I even had like Charlie is promised me that he will come do some IoT, you know?
Josh: Oh, Charlie will
Josh: Charlie Isaacs is one of the very few people that I have traveled. Actually, he’s really the only person. I have repeatedly traveled to events and Charlie’s just there. He’s just s.. it’s like a random, you know, DG group in like, you know, New York City and he’s just there.
Bhavana: Amazing. Yeah, one time. Somebody who had this like sort of like ohana, like get together on a Sunday in DC, and somebody was coming from Canada, and then tweeting about it. And then Charlie found out and then he shows up. Yeah, I guess the weekends and he happens to be on East Coast. Otherwise he’s Yeah, yeah. He’s, I never know where he is. Because he’s everywhere
Josh: little, little bit of an extrovert that, you know, you’re also involved in a group that has been mentioned, and let’s feature it a little bit more. And that being RAD Women. How did you get involved in RAD Women?
Bhavana: Oh, yes. So when I was doing my undergrad, one of my professors and I think it was electronics of 101 hundred 200 300. When I finished the whole series with him, I remember he asked me to promise him that I will teach one day he said, you’ll be really good at it. That’s what he thought. And I was like, Okay, and then you know, it was forgotten. I finished my degree, I got my first job and forgot all about it. Then one day, I heard about rad women program. And I was like, oh, because I didn’t know I could teach. I thought you probably need to go to school to learn how to teach. And I talked to Mr. Hawley, and you’re like, yeah, and so I got started, like in the fall of 2017. And I been doing it since I just loved the program. I just loved being involved. I mean, I remember my first time I was so nervous, because like, Do I know enough to teach these admins like, it’s one one. But the learners who come in to do this are so curious, and they’re so interested in learning that I just get so energized by their enthusiasm in such a good program. I just tell everybody and anybody who was a strong admin who was interested in learning Just go to red women.org and sign up for, you know, their next session availability because I don’t know any developers who are interested in teaching because we are always looking for more coaches. But it is such a good program. And I see it is becoming like a family, all these learners who learn then they go on to do these great things. It’s just amazing.
Josh: So so let’s frame that a little bit. How would you describe the mission statement for RAD women?
Bhavana: Oh, they probably have a really good one on there.
I could probably not do justice.
oh, I have the T shirt. It says like fixing the gender gap, one line of code at a time or something like that. Yeah, something like that. If they have a really cool statement, I have to check my T shirts exactly what it says. And it just like such a good mission because yeah, just to because coding sometimes seems so out of reach to some people, but it’s really I mean, yeah, so
Josh: yeah, I mean, we’ve talked about it on the pod before. It’s not that it’s not a technical skill. It’s not that it’s not a professional skill, but it’s also not black magic.
Josh: yes, yes. And if there’s one thing I kind of heard consistently is that those two things that you mentioned before, the enthusiasm and the curiosity, that’s really all you need.
Bhavana: Yeah, where are the rules? Like?
What’s going on here?
Bhavana: Yeah. And I know just enough to like Google and right, even like, the aura component, or the new lightning web component, but yeah, I need to know it. Well, if I’m going to write, you know, efficient code here. So that’s my thing to do. That’s rehearsal.
Josh: All right to quickly bring it back to read women really quickly, because one of the things I constantly hear is RAD Women needs more coaches. So yes, you make a good candidate to be a coach in how could they sign up?
Bhavana: So, I mean, any developer who’s learning who’s, you know, wants to teach who’s curious to share their knowledge, but also, you know, one thing I really learned is like, there’s something in it for you to developers, because I feel like I became more comfortable, you know, public speaking, because it is public speaking, even though it’s like a small group of people. You know, there’s, there’s something in it for you. But yeah, if you have a passion for learning, because there’s always more learners than coaches available, so there’s always a waiting list. So anybody who’s interested, just go to rad women.org and then there’s a place there where you say you can you want to sign up to be a coach. And yes, definitely, the more we can have the shorter waiting list we have that would be actually thinking
Josh: and it’s kind of a side thing as we’re recording this our world is in a very unprecedented situation. And you know, you and I are very used to working from home and having like a flexible work lifestyle but there’s a lot of people who in the last week or last week even been kind of thrusted into that role of a remote worker. Do you have any like Top of Mind tips for the person who just got told you know, you’re gonna be working from your living room?
Bhavana: Yeah, it does take a lot of discipline because especially when you’re at home in the beginning, it’s like yay, no commute. It’s so much fun. But it does take a lot of discipline because when you’re working you’re working and you can just get up and you know, are no start doing the dishes. You have to say this is my work, you know, I mean, you can have the flexibilities but especially people now I guess, because if they even have kids at home, then it would become a difficult, but yeah, you have to say okay for the next maybe you take turns. If you I was at home to sit for hours with my attorney because you would need that uninterrupted time for gaming. And it can also get very lonely in the beginning it’s a lot of fun but then gets very lonely so I do feel like using you know, online meeting like zoom or something with cameras on it really helps. I’m part of this Twitter group called Chicago ohana even though I’m not in Chicago, but I’m really really good friends with a lot of my good friends in Chicago. So we we did this like breakfast coffee ohana breakfast coffee club or something like that. We call it this. And then we were on four and we probably talked about this virus most of the time or how to cope with it, but it really helps because then you don’t feel alone and then you so yeah, make make some kind of discipline schedule. Take turns allow the flexibility because you do have that flexibility. Like I could probably never get like eight hours of straight work and maybe you don’t need to you can work four hours a day like getting up early. get the work done. Take them another day to do whatever’s. And then maybe later in the day, you have another chunk of work. Yeah.
Josh: Yeah. I think I think that’s, that’s really good advice. Because I think there’s people who once they get into the, the unstructured form of a non office, shall we say, they kind of think, Well, my workday starts at nine and I have no distractions. So surely I should be able to work for 16 hours straight. It’s like nobody ever does that. Like you didn’t do that in your office life. So you shouldn’t expect that in your home office.
Bhavana: Right. Right. And yeah, I I sometimes end up working. So if you need to put in 40 hours a day, they don’t have to be Monday through Friday, maybe like five hours every day in the morning. And you know, and take it easy. That’s the day because yeah, it’s it’s going to be a trying time for everybody including the kids in the house. So
Josh yeah. And I think it’s interesting that you use the dishes example because I have found myself at my desk saying I need to take a break, go do the dishes.
Bhavana: Yeah. And that’s that held sway I sometimes I say, Okay, this is too much I’m going to get up and water my plants. And I do use my Fitbit to remind me every hour to do 20 to 30 staff so because otherwise you could just sit there and there is no interruption. There is no phone call there is no co workers. So you could just sit there for four hours and not move. Right.
Josh: You know, every now and then you have to remember to eat lunch.
Bhavana: Yeah, yeah, definitely walk because I think even with the virus walks are still safe. So do that. Yeah.
Josh: All right. One final question. What is your favorite non technical hobby? Ooh,
Bhavana: okay. So for the past five or six years now I’ve been trying to learn how to make wine. I am a I am really into red wine. And I’m not sure if I’m a good winemaker yet but I’m a really good wine drinker. So there’s a winemaker here in Howard County and he gets grapes from Napa. And then we go through the whole process. So Carl We’re making something called lbr, which is a left bank, red style, red wine. And it’s, yeah, get the grip from stagecoach vineyard in Napa gate here, we get grapes. And then we crush them and do all the process. And right now it’s in the barrel, and we’ll bottle it in September. And then esign learn a little bit more, a little bit more. So that’s when I say that when I grew up, I probably going to be a winemaker.
Josh And I want to wish Bhavana well on her wine making journey. That’s our show. I want to think about it for the great conversation. And also just a shout out to all the women who worked at that statistic about women in technical architecture and said, Oh, heck, no. Now, you want to learn more about this podcast, head on over to developer.salesforce.com/podcast, where you can hear old episodes, see our show notes that have links to your favorite podcast service. Thanks a lot, and I’ll talk to you next week.