Episode 77: Architect Solution Jam with Gemma Blezard | Salesforce Developers Podcast

Gemma Blezard is the CEO and founder of The Architect Club. In this episode we leverage her extensive experience in crafting solutions for Salesforce as we go through a “solution jam” for a fictional company, based on her recent Cactusforce presentation.
We also detail her passion for helping others in the community, particularly with her involvement in Ladies Be Architects – a program which has helped people around the world ramp up their Salesforce skills. Tune in to hear how and why Gemma tackles complex business challenges with Salesforce.

Show Highlights:

  • How she transitioned from data analyst to architect.
  • What the Ladies Be Architects community is and what led her to start it.
  • How to practice Salesforce sustainability.
  • A solution jam for a fictional B2B company that is bleeding money.
  • When to address training, procedure, and communication needs before finding solutions.
  • How Salesforce can replace technologies like shared drives and spreadsheets.
  • The advantages of having a collaborative sales team.
  • Advice for architects who are approaching clients with problems.

Links:

Episode Transcript

Gemma Blezard:
A lot of it is about connection to other people. That’s something I really value highly in my personality, and Salesforce and customer relationship management is all about connection.

Josh Birk:
That is Gemma Blezard, CEO and Founder of the Architect Club. I’m Josh Birk, your host for the Salesforce Developer Podcast. Here on the podcast, you’ll hear stories and insights from developers for developers.

Josh Birk:
Today, we sit down and talk with Gemma about her long experience architecting solutions with Salesforce. We’re going to go through what she called a solution jam for her Cactusforce presentation, but as usual, we start with her early years and how she got into Salesforce itself.

Gemma Blezard:
I fell into it. I decided to make a change in my life. I moved from the UK Midlands down to London area, and I took a job in sales ops. They said, “Part of your role will be reporting, making sure that our salespeople are supported in forecasting their pipeline. You’ll be loading data into this thing called Salesforce. That will be your reporting tool. We’re early adopters. Are you interested?” I was like, “Yeah, fantastic,” thinking it’s another system that I can go and run reports from, because my role was a data analysis primarily.

Gemma Blezard:
I just loved the fact that you didn’t have to install it on a computer. That was my favorite thing. The first time I even logged into Salesforce, wasn’t even through the front door, I used a tool called DemandTools to log in and manipulate data straight away through the API.

Josh Birk:
Oh, interesting.

Josh Birk:
That’s a very straight forward role where you’re a data analyst, you’re working with reports. You have a long history as a software architect on the Salesforce platform. How did you go from just data analysis to the broader role of architect?

Gemma Blezard:
I think a lot of it was about that passion for the actual work I was doing. I really loved the work. I loved working with Salesforce. I got a real buzz out of supporting the people on the sales floor. I made friends with them, I understood their needs and I could bring those needs back in to shape some of the requirements that we were working on in the Salesforce admin team.

Gemma Blezard:
How did I bring some of that? I suppose that passion and hunger to learn more about the business side of sales and service actually drove me towards wanting to help other people with it. It’s a natural urge. I think my father is very much the same. My dad works in the emergency services. If he sees an issue, he’s straight out of the car, sleeves up, helping somebody. It’s the way he’s wired, and I’m very proud of him for that.

Gemma Blezard:
For me, it’s more of a roadie experience. I like to enable people. I wanted to take some of that bigger picture thinking out to other consultants, but also out to our clients. I wanted to learn about other industries and how they work and how they use Salesforce and their challenges. So really it came from signing myself up for projects that I was nervous about in the beginning. Making sure my managers knew that I want to work on a service cloud project so that I can do my service cloud cert.

Gemma Blezard:
At some point there was a turning point in my career when I said, “I want to start working on enterprise level programs now. I want to understand how those challenges can be addressed, but also how does Salesforce fit in the wider strategy?” I suppose it was that interest in that that helped me to progress and take on more complex applications and projects to encourage me to deliver the value that I deliver now as an architect.

Josh Birk:
Nice. Nice.

Josh Birk:
Today I want to talk about that complex solution solving the jamming solutions. I’m certain I’m saying that right. But before we get into that, I want to talk about, I guess, a little bit more of that roadie aspect. Tell me a little bit more about Ladies Be Architects. What’s the elevator pitch there?

Gemma Blezard:
Ladies Be Architects is a community. It’s not something you can join; it’s something you can participate. It’s just run by women, but it’s for everyone. The reason it’s called Ladies Be Architects is so that we can show other women that women can lead in this space and become delivery experts and don’t have to feel shy about pushing themselves forward, pushing themselves further and raising their own profiles on projects.

Josh Birk:
Gotcha.

Josh Birk:
You’re their founder. What led you to want to create such a group?

Gemma Blezard:
Studying; I had some bench time at work.

Josh Birk:
Really?

Gemma Blezard:
Yeah. My background and career has always been about delivering value to clients. I had some downtime and I decided to take the opportunity to use it productively. Had a bit of a certifications burst, if that makes sense. It was only meant to be one. It was more of a Forest Gump situation, where it was like I just kept on running. Next thing I’m looking at my wall, there’s 17 of them up there. I took the opportunity. That also, while I was doing that, enabled me to get involved in some pre-sales activity with work where we were. I was able to apply that knowledge because it was recently in my head.

Josh Birk:
Gotcha.

Josh Birk:
What does it mean to be an ambassador for the group?

Gemma Blezard:
What does it mean to be an ambassador? Being an ambassador is about creating environments for active learning. We have wonderful ambassadors in Australia who are currently leading a platform app builder study group. It’s a series of sessions once a month, just for 45 minutes to an hour to go through some of the content around the app builder certification. The whole purpose of it is to celebrate the achievements of women who were passing these certifications and to encourage others to structure their learning. But also, one of our strengths at Ladies Be Architects is our ability to take complex architectural topics and break them down into easily understandable chunks. And that we think creates accessibility into that delivery leadership role, creates a career path for admins and developers.

Josh Birk:
Do you have a favorite success story?

Gemma Blezard:
Oh my gosh.

Josh Birk:
I know this is one of those picking of the favorite of your children type questions. I understand.

Gemma Blezard:
Oh, there are so many in our community that I’m proud of. I’m actually particularly proud of my co-leader Susanna, and I know I’m picking my co-leader, but I’ve seen her come from strength to strength. When I first met her, she was learning to code. She’s now coaching at RAD Women Code. She is delivering presentations about data quality and data stewardship, and just seeing her progress to that level of seniority, because she’s put that passion behind her learning. She has not only just collected certs like so many people do unfortunately, she has used those certifications daily to deliver real success to her customers, and I’m just so fiercely proud of her.

Josh Birk:
Nice. I believe she’s presenting at London’s Calling this week?

Gemma Blezard:
Yes. She’s actually just done her session. Yes. She did it all about data there as well.

Josh Birk:
Nice.

Josh Birk:
Now it sounds like it’s a very global effort. You were just talking about Australia being involved. You’re in the UK. Has the pandemic really effected it much or has it always been kind of a remote exercise?

Gemma Blezard:
Ladies Be Architects has always been remote because we wanted it to include people of all time zones. That was the first thing we considered was how to make this accessible. Now obviously when we record these and broadcast them live, there are some times zones that cannot take part. So we try our best to coordinate the timings of those. Maybe one month, we will do it on an APAC friendly time zone. And then another month we will run it on an AMEA and America friendly time zone. We do try to do that. But we also record every session and we make them all available on YouTube so that people can use them to study for their exams, not even just study really, just to help inform their decision-making while they’re working on projects.

Josh Birk:
How can people get involved?

Gemma Blezard:
Come join us on the success community on Salesforce, and we engage on Twitter.

Josh Birk:
Nice. We will obviously provide links to those in the show notes.

Gemma Blezard:
Thank you.

Josh Birk:
Onto the exercise today where we’re trying to kind of duplicate your talk from Cactusforce, a solution jam as you called it, but first looking over your slides, I saw that you had hashtag Salesforce sustainably. What do you mean by that?

Gemma Blezard:
As Salesforce continues to sell into more household names, the complexity of projects is going up. There are multiple strategies that you can employ to ensure that your Salesforce org is working with performance, at high speed, but also that your data is held in the right places to ensure that you are keeping your environment as scalable as possible, especially if you’ve got big growth plans as a business.

Gemma Blezard:
Salesforce sustainably is about creating a set of frameworks that ensure your Salesforce is as optimized as it can be, because actually that ultimately has an impact on the sustainability of the actual solutions that you produce. How long will this field be used for? How long will this flow stand up? Will this flow work with 10 users versus will this flow work with 10,000 users and will it extend to communities, et cetera? Do we need to redesign it?

Gemma Blezard:
So we’re emphasizing that thought is really important, strategy is really important, not only just from a project and business sustainability, but also from an environmental perspective, because ultimately the smarter you are about tuning your performance of Salesforce, the less impact it has on data centers, less electricity it uses, and ultimately better impact on the environment. There are lots of ways that you can Salesforce sustainably.

Josh Birk:
Let’s talk a little bit about the use case we have here. Tell me about the fictional company you came up with, and I’m probably saying this incorrectly, Rapid Raspados.

Gemma Blezard:
Oh maybe, I don’t know. I’m also … just making it up being a British person. With Cactusforce, it is very much themed around Arizona so I decided to take [inaudible 00:10:55], some local traditions in Arizona, having never been. I discovered a snack that apparently they have over there, which is a flavored sweet ice. So I created a fictional company called Rapid Raspados. I’m sure you actually pronounced it way better than I did.

Josh Birk:
I think I put a Spanish spin on it. I’m not really sure. But think we’re both pretty close. So you’ve never had flavored ice?

Gemma Blezard:
I never have, other than maybe slushies that are full of EA numbers, and the minute I give one to my daughter she’s off like a rocket.

Josh Birk:
Pretty similar. Pretty similar, I will confess. Okay.

Josh Birk:
So our fictional company is selling flavored ice. It’s doing really well, but it’s also bleeding money. Is that an accurate way of how you kind of set up their current business situation?

Gemma Blezard:
Yes. Their challenges are that they have field sales, business development, strategic account managers and a management team, so they have a value-based sales cycle, very much around relationships. They’re a B-to-B company. They’ve got field sales reps that are paired with office-based counterparts. They’ve all got aggressive targets. So there were some questionable behaviors happening in the sales organization. Some of those examples; giving large discounts without approval, bypassing due diligence checks, those naughty salespeople, not to mention a version nightmare, the spreadsheets being overwritten. They’ve still got an on-premise shared drive, nicknamed the F-drive, where they work on all of their forecasting and pipeline spreadsheets. And it’s really bespoke when it comes to pricing as well. Nobody knows what version of the pricing spreadsheet has the right rules in it. So unbelievably, they lost half a million in profit last year due to inaccurate pricing.

Josh Birk:
Gotcha.

Josh Birk:
Let’s break this down, but I want to break it down kind of like you are the person in the room listening to the client give you this information sort of for the first time, because you do this brilliant thing in the presentation where you take what they’re saying, and then what you’re hearing into the nouns and verbs that you can turn into a solution. Let me just go ahead and start with the first part of the business challenge as you described it.

Josh Birk:
The sales organization consists of field sales, business development, strategic account managers, and their management team. Field sales reps are paired with office-based counterparts to support a shared portfolio of customers when the field rep is out on the road. Sales reps have aggressive targets, so there are some questionably behavior happening in the sales organization. What are the nouns and the verbs that you hear from that description?

Gemma Blezard:
Well, first of all, the overall community of users, the sales organization, so that’s my scope first of all. That’s something for me to really zoom in and focus on. There might be other things that come in on the periphery because I might then start going into management consultancy mode and saying, “Okay, what are the challenges that your customers are reporting? What are their biggest issues, et cetera?” But right now; sales organization’s scope. Field sales, business development, strategic account managers, they’re three different types of sales approach there. That tells me that potentially there’s going to be different approaches for looking after that account data and looking after opportunities. Strategic account managers, their sales cycles are likely to be longer for example. So there might be different validation rules needed later on to ensure that that progression through that cycle is being appropriately tracked.

Josh Birk:
Nice.

Josh Birk:
And then the second part, which I think really puts the challenge to the business challenge, giving large discounts without approval and bypassing the due diligence checks are just two examples, not to mention the version nightmare being caused by spreadsheets being overwritten. Raspados still uses the on-premise shared nickname, as you warned us, the wonderful F-drive, to work on its many sales spreadsheets. Pricing is also very bespoke and nobody knows which version of the pricing spreadsheet has the correct rules. And as you stated, they lost half a million.

Josh Birk:
What are the challenges in the problem stories that you’re hearing there? Some of them are fairly glaring, but specifically.

Gemma Blezard:
Yes. I hear the challenges and the problem statements, but I also hear about opportunities here, an opportunity to prevent financial loss that’s presented through automating pricing and centralizing and standardizing that pricing. Now straight away as a consultant, or many of you might think CPQ, straight away CPQ, but actually, is it really CPQ? You got to dig into a little bit more detail and understand exactly how very bespoke this is because in my experience, customers always tell you that they’ve got something really complex, and then when you actually dive into it, sometimes it’s very complex and sometimes actually you’re not so worried. The solution itself is quite straightforward, but it’s the procedure role and training and communication needs that need consideration more than the actual solution. Does that makes sense?

Josh Birk:
Tell me a little bit more about that actually. Is that like CPQ is sort of the 10 pound hammer, but you don’t always need to bring that to bear if the pricing isn’t actually as complicated as it sounds?

Gemma Blezard:
We’re all encouraged to be able to hear a problem as a consultant and immediately come up with a solution. That’s our strengths, and we think we look good by just doing that. We look better by understanding and listening to nuance. Why do you think these products are so hard to understand? How many do you actually sell? How many skews are there? How many versions of those prices? How many currencies do you work with? Once you’ve got that big picture, you can work downwards and start to break down some of the data and think about how best to create an easy experience for salespeople to add the prices to the opportunities, but also ensure that the appropriate reporting is achieved and that they can still produce quotes and send them out to customers and make that great experience, make it very clear to customers what they’re buying.

Josh Birk:
Going back to … you were first hearing the first part of the business challenge, what are the validation rules? What are we going to have to automate into? So you’re not just breaking it down into a singular, just throw a CPQ and be done; it’s human process end-to-end. What’s the human experience between what happens before they start entering in prices to the field’s rep actually going out and actually trying to make the sale?

Gemma Blezard:
Yes. That can make the difference, a huge difference to your cost of ownership for Salesforce, because if you’ve gone and bought CPQ because someone said, “Yup, you need CPQ to do all this, and here’s all the magic stuff, shiny stuff that you need,” and actually it might be that you need maybe most of that functionality and there are other parts that you would hand off to other solutions. So we’re just saying, think about it. Think about how that would work for you.

Josh Birk:
Yeah. Yeah, and I remember my days of being a consultant that the risk of bringing out the most powerful, most costly solution, especially in that initial business requirements gathering, it’s like once you’ve said that, it’s hard to put it back into Pandora’s box, like this may be your minimal viable product solution first, it’s hard to get that back on the table. Has that been your experience too?

Gemma Blezard:
It can be because the temptation is to go for an MVP approach, minimum viable product, but actually the temptation with those approaches is that sometimes the technology team can do just that, focus on the technology. And then they come into a world of hurt when it comes to implementation because those users haven’t been involved and given any feedback about their experience. They’ve just had this system thrust upon them according to the way the process should be. And actually we think that the process, a lot of the time can be automated. The data validation could be automated so that you get all the reporting.

Gemma Blezard:
There are ways that you can break these scenarios down to say, “Right. Okay. I understand my users, my actors now, understand what they need to do, how do I flip it on its head?” Two questions; how do I make it really easy for people to give the discounts they need to give? So that’s a business question. It could be that the discount approval levels need to change or be discussed. But also how do I actually stop and systematically prevent large discounts going out? That’s easy to do in Salesforce. What’s harder to do is to change the mentality.

Josh Birk:
I am being reminded of the conversation I had with Katie [inaudible 00:20:10], where I’m pitching to her, “What’s your starting point for doing a data analysis and how to form a data model?” And her response was, “Basically it’s human centric. It’s what are the humans doing day in and day out? And what are the tasks that should be automated, or what are the tasks that shouldn’t be automated? I’m hearing a very similar user story centric approach from you.

Gemma Blezard:
It’s rare that a project hits the wall because of the tech.

Josh Birk:
Right. Right. Right. Okay.

Josh Birk:
Let’s talk about the tech a little bit, because I think some people listening to this might think that our friend, the F-drive, that you’re almost using hyperbole here. I can attest and I can’t name names, but I can attest that I know of at least one firm here in Chicago that uses a shared drive in Minnesota to do their national handling of contacts. So if you need to do a mailing list, you have to log into a computer in Minnesota. I don’t even know if it was a spreadsheet. I wouldn’t even say it was a database in Minnesota. It was I think like a Word document or something like that.

Josh Birk:
How often do you see these kinds of just old school, there’s a single drive, there’s a single database that companies making a lot of money or relying on?

Gemma Blezard:
Not so much these days, I have to admit, but six or seven years ago, it was a lot more commonplace. With the movement to the cloud, obviously a lot of companies have spent the last seven to eight years becoming more digital in their storage approach. So we find ourselves integrating with document repository and storage applications in many cases, depending on the volumes.

Josh Birk:
So the fact that it’s so much easier to uplift into the cloud has, has gotten people out of this, as I like to call it, the asbestos ware.

Gemma Blezard:
Yes. I think that actually seeing the cloud come into daily life as well. People are using Dropbox and Google Photos and Facebook to store their precious information. So people are used to the concept now that you don’t have to store it on a local drive or anything. So this is rarer … but a little bit of hyperbole for sure. Dramatic effects.

Josh Birk:
Dramatic effects, but not outside the realm of possibility by any means.

Gemma Blezard:
Oh no, not my [inaudible 00:22:45] accounts.

Josh Birk:
I wish it was purely hyperbole, but I know that it’s not.

Josh Birk:
Actually I’m curious as to how much the story has changed here as well, because there’s so many times I hear people get into Salesforce because their spreadsheets are being mean to them, like the technology of your spreadsheets is simply not enough. And so it leans them into the dynamic world of Salesforce. Is that still a very true transition for people that you talk to?

Gemma Blezard:
I think yes at a senior level, and then sometimes on a project level, you’ve got someone who doesn’t really want to break up with their spreadsheets. I love a challenge like that because I take that as an opportunity to really show how Salesforce transforms that spreadsheet experience, and actually play to the strengths of what spreadsheets are there for. They’re there for data modeling. They’re there for figuring out what your forecast is going to be. No, it’s not Salesforce [inaudible 00:23:47] for doing that. There’s a time and a place for spreadsheets and it’s not for keeping mailing lists of contacts, as an example.

Josh Birk:
Or your sales data [crosstalk 00:24:03] in the fictional company approach.

Josh Birk:
First of all, if you’re in that initial meeting and you’ve heard these kinds of things, what are some of the other follow-up questions would you have for a client like this to dig into that kind of nuanced information to know how to start getting into the solution itself?

Gemma Blezard:
Oh, follow up questions. Looking at this, obviously we know you’ve got the opportunity to prevent financial losses, but where I can see risks straight away is that because the pricing is so bespoke, it’s like Chinese whispers on how much it costs to sell these Raspados.

Josh Birk:
Roll that back for me a little bit. What exactly do you mean by bespoke.

Gemma Blezard:
So according to the scenario, they started off with one pricing spreadsheet, which has all of the different roles. So if a customer buys in bulk, the price goes down per unit, and then of course goes down based on its volume- based pricing. But because the leadership team have been putting those prices together, but haven’t necessarily centralized them, that has led to those figures being much lower than the leadership team expected. So hence the feeling that they’ve lost 500 grand due to that inaccurate pricing because everyone was using the old spreadsheet.

Gemma Blezard:
That tells me there’s a people changing governance risk. It also tells me there’s a data migration risk. And also it tells me that we need to actually take part in a master data management project too. And in fact, we may have to do that before we even start doing Salesforce, because we need a single list of customers and perhaps orders and products as well. People forget their MDM isn’t just about customer data; there needs to be a master for products too, especially when you’ve got multiple systems involved.

Gemma Blezard:
So there’s a data migration risk. There is a strategy consideration. There’s a roadmap consideration there. And then you’ve got the actual activities and tasks involved in collecting, gathering, adding client unique identifiers, and then identifying the way that you’re going to orchestrate that data migration and any future integration as well.

Josh Birk:
Nice, nice.

Josh Birk:
When it comes to the chaos of the sales team itself, what’s the tech that you’re going to have to put in to enforce that governance?

Gemma Blezard:
Certainly. Because we know we’ve got field sales, business development, strategic account managers and their management team, that tells me the actors. It also tells me the wrongs, if you like. It is a competitive sales organization. What this briefing doesn’t tell me is whether they want to continue to be a competitive sales organization or whether they want to promote a collaborative account management approach. That would be one of the first questions. Is that broken for you? Is that even an issue? It may be that they come out with sharing visibility requirements. We don’t want users to be able to change each other’s opportunities because it could get quite nasty out there.

Josh Birk:
Right. Tell me a little bit more about that. I feel like everybody I’ve talked to back in my old days of consulting, competitive sales teams … Let’s define competitive sales team. Competitive sales team is simply team A, team B, you, you two are in competition and I’m going to reward whichever one makes the most sales period, like classic shark tank room kind of scenarios. Is that about right?

Gemma Blezard:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Josh Birk:
What’s some of the advantages of moving to a more collaborative sales team?

Gemma Blezard:
Diversity of thought and opinion. The more heads that you have sharing experience and sharing opinion, obviously not too much sometimes because you could spend hours on or days on it, but identifying and spotting the right people to help you on a personal level, but also to help you with the deal itself brings the benefits of that experience, brings the benefits of being flexible to a customer’s needs, adjusting your deal so that it works best for the customer. Those are the sorts of things I would encourage. And then the way the tech would back that up is actually through account teams. You can add the field rep only account with the office-based counterparts on their default account team so that they always have that recognition that they work together on those accounts, that those accounts are part of that portfolio.

Josh Birk:
Which I think is kind of a fascinating, not from a data modeling point of view, but like the admin role of visibility versus transparency. I remember the first time somebody gave me the talking points of only these people can see these opportunities because these other people might try to poach that opportunity if they’re allowed to see it within Salesforce, which tells you how naive I am from a salesperson point of view that I had to learn that that was actually a thing.

Gemma Blezard:
It is a thing, yeah. My personality type, I’m a bit of a campaigner, so I’m the one that’s going, “Okay, well, those are behaviors that actually are much bigger than Salesforce.” You need to think about strategically what kind of culture you want to promote because those form guiding principles for how you then go about designing Salesforce. That’s your values part of the V2MOM.

Josh Birk:
Is there any other tech that we’re missing here that could be helping out our friends, Rapid Raspados?

Gemma Blezard:
Absolutely. The due diligence checks that are being bypassed, so if they’re selling huge volumes of units to a company and they don’t know if that company can pay for the order and they’ve had issues with bypassing due diligence checks. So there’s an opportunity to actually integrate here with public facing systems, credit checking systems, chamber of commerce style checks to ensure that the business actually exists and isn’t insolvent, et cetera. Those opportunities take that whole responsibility away from the sales person.

Josh Birk:
Nice. Nice. Nice.

Gemma Blezard:
They don’t have to worry about that because it’s done, but they equally need to be notified if it comes back with a problem and given a strategy to resolve that problem.

Josh Birk:
Okay, so solution jam, we’re kind of bantering about this; it’s a fictional company. With all of your experience do you have for the architect who’s actually in the room, and I think I’ve heard it a little bit throughout our talk about listening to the nuance and looking at the role, do you have words of advice for when I’m sitting across the table from the client, how should I be approaching them?

Gemma Blezard:
Open-ended questions for a start. They are an important tool in your arsenal. Being willing to stand up and draw concepts out. Being bold enough to challenge conversations and say, “Okay, we’re going down an interesting path and we’ve got different views, let’s do an exercise and try and understand what the themes are so that we can agree a way forward.” A lot of that is about being brave and bold enough to pick those up and actually test what they do for you, those little games in workshops and surveys you can do and even ride-alongs.

Josh Birk:
Nice. Nice. Excellent. Yeah, I have to say my experience as a suicide hotline volunteer helped an awful lot in my role as being a consultant in business situations.

Gemma Blezard:
Oh my goodness. My skin has grown much thicker over the years, I would say. There are still behaviors that I come across in any line of business that are unfavorable, and I’m always learning on how to deal with those better.

Josh Birk:
That’s our show. Now before we go, I did ask after Gemma’s favorite non-technical hobby. And I have to say standing here in Chicago, where I am still not eligible for a vaccination, there are still definitely some of these hobbies that I am distinctly jealous of. This would be one.

Gemma Blezard:
My favorite non-technical hobby; I still don’t know. At the moment it is currently relaxed … Actually yes, I do know. Going to spa days. There’s a group of us in the UK that get together when we can. At the moment it’s been once a year. Its unofficial name is Spa-Force. We book ourselves into a local spa. We spend the whole day there, have treatments and just hung out. That is my favorite thing to do.

Josh Birk:
I want to thank Gemma for the great conversation and information, and as always, I want to thank you for listening. Now, if you want to learn more about this podcast, head on over to developer.salesforce.com/podcast where you can hear old episodes, see the show notes, and have links to your favorite podcast service. Thanks again, everybody. I’ll talk to you next week.