Episode 204: B2C Commerce Cloud with Thomas Theunen

Thomas Theunen Ready to jump into the captivating realm of coding and computer technology? This episode promises an intriguing exploration of the journey from early computing to the cutting-edge applications of artificial intelligence in software development. Join us with Thomas Theunen, head of commerce at Forward, as he reminisces about his fascinating evolution from a curious child tinkering with his first computer to becoming a tech-savvy forward thinker.

Interested in how languages evolve in the world of coding? From Thomas’s maiden voyage with C#, his engagement with Windows Phone applications, to his dedicated seven-year expedition with Java at an enterprise level, it’s a rollercoaster ride through the tech landscape. Our discussion dives deep into the Salesforce ecosystem, JavaScript development, and the emerging uses of AI in speeding up workflows. Lastly, Thomas discusses the burgeoning B2C Commerce Cloud community and his invaluable contributions to it.

This isn’t just an episode; it’s a chronicle of a tech enthusiast’s journey, making it a must-listen for all computer technology and coding enthusiasts!

Show Highlights:

Thomas’s professional journey with software development languages.
His experience transitioning into the Salesforce ecosystem, JavaScript development with B2C Commerce Cloud, and his evolution from a developer to an architect.
The role of AI in software development, how it has helped Thomas speed up his workflows, and the importance of human involvement in reviewing AI-generated solutions.
Thomas’ contribution to the B2C Commerce Cloud community, its growth over the years, and his insights into using React in development.
The transformative role of AI in workflow improvement, from aiding in code generation to simplifying unit tests.

Episode Transcriptions

Thomas Theunen:
And I think, yeah, I couldn’t touch it, so I wasn’t allowed to touch it. And only when he got his second computer, I got the old one. And then I started moving, because his was connected to the internet and mine wasn’t, I was moving stuff over with diskettes, I think that’s the correct English word, to just move that stuff over that I downloaded on his computer, and then put it on mine, like computer games and software, et cetera. And always fiddling with trying to fit stuff on that 3 megabytes was quite a challenge. Kept me busy for many hours.

Julián Duque:
And that’s Thomas Theunen, head of commerce at FORWARD. And I’m Julián Duque, your host, for the Salesforce Developer Podcast. And here in the podcast, we share stories and insights from developers, for developers. Today we’re going to talk with Thomas about B2C Commerce Cloud, but before, we’ll start just as we left off, and we often do, with his early year.

Thomas Theunen:
I think my first experience with a computer was when I was around eight, nine, I believe, when my father first bought a computer with Windows 3.11, if I’m not mistaken.

Julián Duque:
3.11, yeah, that’s-

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah.

Julián Duque:
That’s quite the journey to the memory lane for me.

Julián Duque:
And what were the things you were moving, mostly games or what were the things you were downloading back in the days?

Thomas Theunen:
Anything that I found interesting. Software, but a lot of games, like computer games that I found on the internet, probably not the safest way from some viruses that were part of those programs. But yeah, I think that was the biggest chunk, like computer games and not so much anything with working on the computer. I think that was also the time that I was still fiddling inside of the cases of the computer rather than working with the software. That changed at a later stage in my life.

Julián Duque:
Oh, nice. I didn’t touch the internals or the hardware until I was now an adult, because I didn’t want to damage the computer we had at home. It was a very precious thing to start fiddling with it.

Thomas Theunen:
There was the second computer, so it gave me a little bit of freedom, but again, I tried to make sure that I didn’t destroy the computer, because it was the only one I had. But yeah. But that changed at a later stage. Now I just want the device to work and that the software on it runs, so I can, well, develop.

Julián Duque:
And then I imagine you were able to have internet in your own computer later.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, but that took a long while. I think while it was still dial up, my father kept a strict access, because it cost a lot of money to be connected to the internet, and if you left a connection on and you couldn’t call while you were connected to the internet, et cetera. So I didn’t really get a lot of time. Only when broadband, I think… Was it in 2000, or was it a little bit earlier? I’m not really sure again. But once there was broadband, no real restriction on the connection, just on the amount of data that you downloaded. That’s when I got a connection of my own. Although I really had to monitor what I was doing on the internet, because I think it was like 500 megabytes at the start per month, then a gigabyte, and for a long time was very low. So you continuously had to monitor, because they would shut down the internet if you reached that limit, it would come to a crawl and the internet would become unusable, and my father would yell at me if I got the internet to come to a crawl.

Julián Duque:
We don’t want that. We don’t want that. I remember those days, I think I had just one hour a day for internet purposes. Then when broadband came in, you start kind of forgetting about the limits. Right now we are 100% connected and we don’t have much bandwidth limits, so we don’t think about that. But back in the days it was way different story.

Thomas Theunen:
Oh yeah. I think now on a monthly basis, it’s half a terabyte that goes through, if you look at Netflix or downloading PlayStation updates for games, or downloading, it’s like 100 gigabytes in one file. So if you look at, compared to the ’90s, it’s huge, the amount of difference of data that you’re pushing through compared to then you had to watch out, “Oh, it’s 10 megabytes in size, I need to watch out to be able to get enough bandwidth to get through the month.”

Julián Duque:
Yeah. Oh my God, that’s so great. And how you got into coding. It was something also from a young age or this came later?

Thomas Theunen:
It came actually at a later stage. I started with my computer. I think when I got it was usually just games and playing around. And until I was, I think 15, 16, I actually wasn’t interesting in development at all. I wanted to become an accountant.

Julián Duque:
Accountant?

Thomas Theunen:
An accountant, yes. The only problem was after two, three years of studying, I figured that I didn’t like accounting, and also didn’t like working with numbers. So that’s quite annoying if you want to become an accountant, which is basically only working with numbers and working with financials. So I had to make a big change when I was 16 and I completely switched my studies and went to, well, computer science, because a few years before I was creating some websites, I was the go-to person. If a computer was running slow or was filled with viruses, I would go to people’s houses and for a small amount of money, I would clean it up. Didn’t matter how bad it was, because I saw a lot of bad things. I mean, I was surprised that even some of these computers were still running with the amount of viruses that were installed.
You get popups every five seconds. If you open a website, you could get extra, well, ads. I mean, it was pretty bad in a lot of cases, and I figured maybe I can do something with that. And I did a test for, well, applying to that degree. I’m not sure if I can call it a degree yet, and I failed the development part, but I did pass all of the rest, so they allowed me to join. And that’s where I really started learning development and really fell in love with being able to create things. I was not the best of student, I think my grades were always just above the passing grade, even in development, but I still loved creating stuff, just not the things that I got assigned to me as projects. So I found my own way and, well, really moved around in development languages.

Julián Duque:
Nice. And what was your first language?

Thomas Theunen:
I think the first one was C.

Julián Duque:
C? Oh, okay.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, that was the first development. Then C#, because the teacher we had was from a Microsoft background, so C# was the second one. Never went to Visual Basic, luckily, went to C#. And after that, some PHP. And then at the end, I ended up with Java before getting my first work experience.

Julián Duque:
Oh, tell me about that first work experience. How was it?

Thomas Theunen:
Well, I’m actually still at my first job. I jumped into commerce. So my first work experience was Intershop, which is a different product from B2C Commerce Cloud, from Salesforce, but still has a similar background, because it’s from the same company, they just split ways at one point. And that was a peculiar way of doing Java development. It was more of a visual experience. You created a pipeline, as they call it, which visually represents the flow of your request. You have a start node, which is your URL, and then you start dragging in blocks of, well, pieces of code, like get product, update product, delete product.
So basically, actually, what looks like flow just in a very retro ’90s view inside of your IDE. And that’s how I learned to work in an enterprise level. Because before, I was just fiddling around. I had a lot of open source projects in C#. I also did a lot of things with Windows Phone that never really lift off, because there were no applications. And I built a few apps myself because, well, there was a gap, and I wanted a few apps on my Windows Phone, and I built those too. And that really helped with the enterprise level of Java. I mean, C# and Java is not the same, but there’s a lot of similarities in the development.

Julián Duque:
Yeah. Is the Windows Phone applications, they used HTML and CSS for the UI? Is that one, or I’m confused?

Thomas Theunen:
No, no, no. That was C# all the way. If you look at HTML C, I think that’s Cordova, which I also did-

Julián Duque:
Oh, yeah.

Thomas Theunen:
… for a while. So I really moved around in different development languages, see what I liked, what I didn’t like, but I ended up with Java, did that, and did that for seven years. Like working with those pipelines in a visual way, but building all of the blocks yourself. And yeah, that was the backend and the front end was HTML, CSS, and then just moving that with the way that technology moved around.

Julián Duque:
Nice. And you are still doing Commerce Cloud, but with different technologies?

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, so after Intershop, I think it was 2017, we were looking to expand the… Because I work for a company that is part of a bigger group, and each company has its own specialization. And we were looking into Demandware at the time, but they told us, well, it’s similar kind of development that Intershop, they’re still pipelines, only the blocks are built out of JavaScript instead of Java. So that’s what really pushed us to say, “Okay, let’s investigate, see what options are there.” And halfway through the negotiations, well Demandware is acquired by Salesforce, so hello, Salesforce. And when we became an official partner, it was already part of the Salesforce ecosystem, but really on the edge of what it is. And I started developing there, moving away from pipelines purely into JavaScript development, because that’s the way it is with B2C Commerce Cloud.

Julián Duque:
Oh, nice. And if I understand right now, you build a site on B2C Commerce Cloud, also using JavaScript, right?

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, so the backend runs completely on a Rhino Engine, so it translates JavaScript to Java. So behind the scenes, it’s still a Java platform, but we as developers talked to it with JavaScript. And the front end before was HTML with jQuery, but since 2000, was it ’19 or ’20? There was another acquisition by Salesforce of Mobify, and that was a React front end heading into headless, while providing a solution, because the e-commerce community in general on all platforms was heading towards a headless/composable architecture. And that was Salesforce’s way of finding a solution towards that headless instead of, as they call it, a monolithic solution, where the front end and the backend just runs on the same engine, and removing the head from the body. And that would be React. So a completely different language than what we’re used to in Salesforce. There’s no Apex, there’s no Lightning Web Components, it’s completely separate.

Julián Duque:
Yeah. Do you know why it’s React instead of LWC? Why-

Thomas Theunen:
I don’t know-

Julián Duque:
… that acquisition was made, or?

Thomas Theunen:
I think because the acquisition, the platform was built on React, and changing a complete language from React to Lightning Web Components is probably quite the endeavor, especially since the platform was already up and running in a way. Then they put a Salesforce flavor on top of it, but changing the development language was probably too much of an effort. But again, I don’t know what the reason was, but because of the acquisition had probably a big say in why it would become React.

Julián Duque:
Yeah. This is more like a question for a PM of course, but personally, I like that. I think the more options folks have to build the applications on Salesforce, I think it’s better, especially with React, you have a lot of control and a huge ecosystem also of different libraries that you can use to build a site. How has been that experience for you? Do you consider right now also a React developer, or do you have the React skills, or just focus on the commerce side of things?

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, so the past three years, I’ve gone through a personal transition from going from a developer also at that time, a technical lead on projects to an architect, which meant a lot less development and more telling other people how to start building things, and how to connect all of the dots together. And that was when, well, React wasn’t really in the picture just yet. And well, once that started happening, my developer sense started to tingle a little bit again. So I wanted to get to know what’s this new platform, et cetera. So even though in my current position as a architect and head of commerce, I’m more inside of a management position hovering over all of the different projects that people are doing. One of my task is also supporting our entire development team with questions, because, well, I know a lot about the platform.
I’ve been doing it now for five years. I’m also, well, one of the teachers of the ARC300 Trailhead Academy course, where I teach architecture, specifically to B2C Commerce Cloud. How do you put aside live going from the analysis phase until to go live, how do you do Hypercare right after, et cetera? And to provide that knowledge to everyone within my team. And that also means that I need to stay up to date with what’s going on in development, because we personally, we have made a switch to the PWA kit, which is the headless storefront of B2C Commerce Cloud that I talked about earlier in React, but it also means that I am forced to learn React, because otherwise, at one point I will not be able to answer all of those questions. And there’s a lot of, well, it’s a completely different thing, React.
It’s not just jQuery and HTML. No, you’re doing everything in JavaScript. It has, like you said, a huge third party library of components, and all of them have their pros and cons, and their specific way of working. And that is something that I need to look into as well to understand what those pros and cons are, to make decisions and help others understand what the effects are of those decisions. And that is why I tried to do some React development when I have the time. I did Udemy courses two years ago, I started doing some side projects, fiddle around with React, what can be done? And at one point, I think it started in January last year with the entire AI, generative AI boom. I figured, “Hey, there’s some stuff that we can do with B2C Commerce Cloud. I want to do that in the administrative console that B2C Commerce Cloud has. Let’s do it in React so that I can fiddle around, still do some well useful projects that we can help our customers with, but also learn, react, and reiterate.”
I mean, I think the project that I’m talking about, I think I rebooted it four times, figuring out something new and then saying, “Oh, well, now I have to change all my files, because this is an entirely better way of working than I’ve been doing for the past few months. Okay, those 100 files, well, I know what to do for the next coming two weeks, and refactor the entire thing to work better.” I think that one was React Query. I did all of my API calls in a different way, and then I found the wonderful library called React Query, which changed 20, 30 lines of code into two lines of code, which I liked a lot, because it made my code a lot more readable. But that also meant that I had to rework my entire API layer, which is fun in its own way. I mean, that’s how you learn new things and you decide for yourself, “Okay, this is a better way of working.” I know it’s a lot of work-

Julián Duque:
This is a whole creative process, of course.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, and that’s how I’ve been learning React for the past year, is building my own framework for the business manager in Commerce Cloud. Well, I like doing useful things when I’m learning. If you have a Udemy course, you can do the exercises, but usually I don’t do the exercises and I start building my own application, and translating those exercises into my own application, so that at the end, after the course is done, I have something that makes my life easier. Maybe I learned something new because of that, but again, in a management role, technically I’m not developing on any project. So that allows me to spend some time looking for innovative ways to apply this technology in the way of working for all of the projects that we have.

Julián Duque:
Nice. Speaking of innovation, tell me a little bit more about that AI aspect. How are you leveraging generative AI in this solution you’re building?

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, so the framework that I built was to make it easier to build other modules within the business and the administrative console. And I use that to build a module to easily implement AI in any aspect that you have. Whatever data you have, you can use AI. If we’re talking about product data, you have SEO that’s important. And generally, titles, descriptions, et cetera, are not provided by an external system, and you need to figure out a way to get those into the front end. And AI is very good, at least generative AI is very good at summarization. So we have a product description, and well, we built a module that basically takes all of the data that we have from the product and say, “Hey, give me an SEO optimized title and description for each product, so that we have something that is, according to all the rules that Google and every other search engine gives us.”
To have that optimized automatically, either with manual verification or in batch, and also for Page Designer, which is the CMS that’s built in, the content management system that’s built into B2C Commerce Cloud. To have generative aspects, like you have a text component and you want to generate some content to give you some ideas, like any CMS is doing to automatically generate some content that will inspire you to write your own thing, but you do not have to start from scratch.
Also, with image generation is also something that we’ve played in, but that is a lot harder to do in a commerce setting. You’re not going to automatically generate product images out of nothing. So there’s a lot of applications for AI, and we built a prompt management tool to generate your prompts, test them out, do some system management, make sure that the data is passed correctly to get the best possible output from the generative AI, because it likes to hallucinate as they call it, and put a layer in front of it within B2C commerce Cloud, until Einstein GPT is available on the platform, which I think is next year.
Which will then take the orchestration layer responsibility and just put it in front and say, okay, here’s the base of using AI in B2C Commerce Cloud, and now we can use it for content, for product data, and possibly other things that would take a lot of manual work, maybe translations, or taking in reports for search terms, the ones that give results, the ones that do not give results and try to find synonyms, match them up, so that we can automatically configure the search engine to respond better, but not having to do the manual task of looking at 3000 words and matching them yourself when a generative AI can do that in seconds.

Julián Duque:
This is so fascinating and powerful. These frameworks that you are building is an open source project, or is a product you’re working on right now?

Thomas Theunen:
So right now it’s a product that we have built just for our own accelerator for the front end, so the headless component, to make management easier, but we are thinking about looking for ways to open source it. We’re talking to Salesforce about this and hoping-

Julián Duque:
Oh, nice.

Thomas Theunen:
… that we can find some way to make this open source for the entire community, because this was built on company time, which means that it’s not mine to give open source. But again, when you’re building a framework like this, you also need to do security audits. You need to be compliant for accessibility, et cetera, and Salesforce has all of those resources available. We’re a company from Belgium, we’re 75 to 100 people strong. We have capabilities, we have knowledge, but we do not have a dedicated security team that will find things that Salesforce would find for… I mean, you have a lot more specialized people within Salesforce than we will ever have and having-

Julián Duque:
And even a dedicated open source team, as well.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah. So having eyes on it, and also from a Salesforce perspective, to improve the solution is also very interesting to me, because we have our vision as a partner, but maybe Salesforce has different views and also sees different opportunities that we can combine to make it even better for everyone around the world.

Julián Duque:
Wow. This is fascinating. I love seeing how fast a lot of companies are starting to adopt AI into their own solutions just beyond the plain next generation, but finding more creative ways of relying on this technology to improve workflows, to make sure people using your products are going to be way more productive, and this seems to be the case.

Thomas Theunen:
And also coding. It really helped me with my journey in React. I use GitHub Copilot, which is giving let’s say 80% of the cases good suggestions, and 20% some doubtful suggestions, but it really helped me on my learning journey, and also sped up the creation of all of these modules. If you look at unit tests, the basic unit tests, it’s really good at generating for you if you already have three or five unit tests written out, and you need to check five more parameters of your function, it will just generate it for you and 95% of the work is already done. That would’ve taken you 30 minutes to do yourself, will now take five minutes for 10 unit tests, so to speak. Yeah.

Julián Duque:
That’s something I always struggled with, which is unit testing. I mostly create happy path tests, but with Copilot, I’ve been also using it for the other parts, and it’s definitely a great tool.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, I’ve been using it now for a year and a half, and the only downside to using such a tool is once the internet drops, or it stops responding, it’s like, oh, I have to type it myself now. Oh, no. Okay.

Julián Duque:
Why does this not complaining?

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah. Where’s my auto complete of complete functions? I have to write this function myself now. No, I mean if we’re looking at complete lines of code, it’s very well, but generating complete functions out of nowhere, I mean that needs some review in most of the cases. It’s good suggestions that you’re doing here, but I’m going to do it differently, because I don’t agree with what you’re doing based on your hive mind that you’ve created.

Julián Duque:
It’s also great thing to steal these needs. The human in the loop, it needs us. Automatically, it’s not going to solve all the problem for us. We still need to have the skills to make sure everything that the AI is giving us is valid, is accurate, and it fits the purpose that we need.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah. I mean, I treat it like a junior developer that’s helping me, like pair programming, like the junior’s writing the code and I’m looking over the shoulder like, “What are you generating here? Okay, that seems valid, but I’m just going to check myself that this is really up to snuff to what I’m expecting it to do.” I think that’s really important. With generative AI right now, it’s at a junior level, slowly improving. I mean, I’m really excited to see what it’s going to do in the next few years. If you look at the differences between GPT three and four, I’m really wondering what five is going to look like, because the difference is huge. But with React development, it’s really helped me to quickly build things based on what I’ve already done. And yeah, that’s how I’ve been using AI from a developer perspective, anyways.

Julián Duque:
Nice. Very interesting and accurate analogy, seeing AI as a junior developer for these cases. I didn’t talk about that. Nice. Well, I know, because you told me offline, that you are the only B2C cloud Golden Hoodie out there in the community.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, that’s a wonderful experience from 2022 at Connections, because I mean, if you look at a B2C Commerce Cloud community as an acquisition, for the first few years, we had our own exchange. We weren’t on Trailhead, there were no modules over there. We are not on the help side. We were quite separate from the community. We had our own way of communicating with the community, let’s say, and the entire Salesforce ecosystem was not something that we felt part of, until I think two years ago when Salesforce was really starting to move over a lot of the… I think our own community was moved over to Trailhead, we had our unofficial Slack that was becoming a lot more popular, allowing people to communicate, and a lot of more products were being added under the Commerce Cloud wing.
Before it was just B2C Commerce Cloud, and now we have B2B on Lightning, we have order management. At one point there [inaudible 00:28:29] on it, but I don’t think that’s a thing anymore. We have Loyalty Cloud, I think that’s under the marketing wing, but a lot more products joined Fray. And that meant there was also a marketing department within Salesforce specifically, starting to focus on getting the community together. And I’m really thankful for Amalia, for all that she’s done to get the community of Commerce Cloud together, and helping us to really try to fit in the whole big Salesforce picture.
If you look at community events, we’re a lot about Core and Marketing Cloud, but for B2C Commerce Cloud, since we’re so different in ways of development, I mean everything is completely different way of working, where there’s no apex, there’s no flow. And she’s really been working on getting us involved, and also advertising our unofficial community, which is about 10,000 people strong now in Slack.

Julián Duque:
10,000?

Thomas Theunen:
10,000, well, I think we have about 2000 people really active, but the total member count is heading towards 11,000, which is great. And because of that involvement and also getting our spot, I was noticed, because I was blogging. During COVID, I got a lot of time on my hands as a lot of people did, and we were only allowed to walk outside, which you can do for a few hours, but you still got a lot of free time on your hands. I started blogging about B2C Commerce Cloud, my experiences, writing guides on how to do specific use cases, because the documentation was very scattered and you had to combine a few pages to go implement something specifically. And I started writing about how to do these things, what you had to look out for with the experience that I gained over the past few years, in general eCommerce, and also in B2C Commerce Cloud.
And it also gave me, well, a little bit of a spotlight I guess, within the community. And because of those efforts, I was well invited to Connections to speak at the keynote, to tell my story about how I got into the community, my contributions. And at the end I got my Golden Hoodie, which was a very big surprise that I was not expecting.

Julián Duque:
Nice.

Thomas Theunen:
But I’m really hoping that someone can join me at one point within the Commerce Cloud community, so that we can get a bigger place in the entirety of what Salesforce is, because it’s a huge ecosystem. But I think if you look at the diagram of percentage, we’re like six or 3% of the entire ecosystem of Salesforce, which is not a lot. So we have a lot of space to gain, but it’s a long road ahead comparing to what the other clouds within Salesforce provide as a community.

Julián Duque:
This is why mostly we are talking right now, is to raise awareness about this community. And we’ll make sure to share the link to the Slack community as well in the show notes. And if your blog post as well is active, we would like to have it there as well.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah. Perfect.

Julián Duque:
Awesome. Thomas, this has been an amazing conversation. While you are not obviously building this framework for Commerce Cloud, or working with the Commerce Cloud community, what do you do for a hobby, or in your spare time?

Thomas Theunen:
So in my spare time, my kids take a lot of my time.

Julián Duque:
I imagine.

Thomas Theunen:
I have two children, two and four. They really keep me busy. But besides that, I’m also part of a theater group, which I joined when I got to know my wife. She is on the stage and I make sure that everything on the stage is all right. I also took ownership of the website, of course, that would’ve been odd not to. And I just make sure that lighting, sound, make sure that the stage is okay. And during the plays, I walk around carrying drinks and food to the people that are enjoying the show, while my wife is up there. And I do not want to be there. So that’s why I’m hiding in-

Julián Duque:
You’re just the stage manager.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah. I make sure that everything’s okay and I’m not in the spotlight, and make sure that the people in the spotlight, that everything runs smoothly. And before COVID happened, I did a lot of evening classes, chocolate, electrician, I think also cookie baking. I did a lot of stuff.

Julián Duque:
That sounds good. And I heard that you all also a designer for Shirt Force.

Thomas Theunen:
Yeah, that’s also now. I think I joined Shirt Force when I was looking for a way, when the war in Ukraine happened, I was looking for ways to help, but I didn’t want to start something new. And I looked for ways that I could help. And that’s when I stumbled on Shirt Force, which is becoming a lot more popular than it was two, three years ago, I think. It’s getting a lot of traction. And I figured, oh, let’s make some designs for B2C Commerce Cloud, it’s all about Core, and I see Apex shirts, and Flow, et cetera, but there’s nothing for B2C Commerce Cloud.
Let’s try to get some designs going for that community, and use those well profits that Shirt Force brings in, and donate to a nonprofit of choice. Like I think every four months, a new target is chosen for the donation, but it seemed like the perfect choice. I mean, it’s not just a one-time thing. It’s something that continuously gives. You design a shirt, people wear it, hopefully buy those shirts, and all the profits will go to nonprofit of choice for those four months. And that’s where we pushed for the Ukraine for those first four months, and afterwards. I mean, there’s a lot of causes that could use funding, and this is a good permanent way to help people around the world too.

Julián Duque:
Nice. That’s beautiful to hear. Well, Thomas, thank you very much for everything you do and for joining us here on the Salesforce Developer Podcast.

Thomas Theunen:
Thank you for having me. It’s been great.

Julián Duque:
And if you want to learn more about this show, head on to developer.salesforce.com/podcast, where you can hear all the episodes and read the show notes. Thank you everybody, and talk to you the next time.

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